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thinkmac  版主  2012-4-11 11:28:08 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
Kanker 发表于 2012-4-11 09:28
社會開放,論壇是公開的平台,沒有人拿槍強迫的,為何人不能夠自由公開地宣傳自己不同的主張 ?

Albert Einstein tried a vegetarian diet - for the last year of his life. He died after doing so and did not make any discoveries nor do any science during that time.
thinkmac  版主  2012-4-11 11:30:20 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
Kanker 发表于 2012-4-11 09:28
社會開放,論壇是公開的平台,沒有人拿槍強迫的,為何人不能夠自由公開地宣傳自己不同的主張 ?

Vegan political killer. Animal rights above human                beings.                Dutch daily "De Telegraaf" published exerpts of a                confidential police investigation report (Dutch), in which                clues are put together adding up to a picture of Volkert van                der Graaf's extra-legal activities as a animal rights                activist. The report is remarkable because it is one of the                very few police reports into the violent animal rights                activists in The Netherlands. This report was composed by the                Investigative Branch of the National Police (Nationale                Recherche, Korps Landelijke Politie Diensten).
                Volkert is the assassin of populist Fortuyn. He shot                Fortuyn on 6 May 2002, at 18:00 hours in Hilversum, The                Netherlands. Hilversum is a town near Amsterdam where most of                the media have their national offices and their studios.
                Dutch police also believe that Fortuyn is not the first                person that van der Graaf murdered.
Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:33:39 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
thinkmac 发表于 2012-4-11 12:23
Adolf Hitler - Vegetarian Megalomaniac Mass                Murderer
               
               ...

典型對素食者有偏見的例子: 印度國父聖雄甘地作例子 ? 非要拿納綷不可 ?

客氣討論你不要聽,非要抽不可的話,我絕對奉陪到底。




紐約時報刊登更正啟示說明
                        
希特勒不是素食者

 紐約時報在3月15日的報紙上刊登一項更正啟示,打破以往認為希特勒是素食者的迷思。                           
 該更正啟示上,紐約時報註明:「一篇關於電影《Downfall(希特勒的最後12夜,又名帝國的毀滅)》的評論對於希特勒的飲食描述是不正確的。雖然該電影將希特勒描述為一位素食者,事實上他是吃肉的。」


                        
 該更正啟示雖然只有短短的66個字,但長久以來將希特勒認定為素食者的迷思,經常被拿來敗壞素食者的形象,該更正讓素食者不再與希特勒過去所做過的兇殘惡行劃上關聯。


                        
 紐約時報是根據北美猶太人素食協會(Jewish                           Vegetarians of North America)所提供的許多一手史實資料做如上的更正啟示。這些資料顯示希特勒後來雖然因為健康因素而避免吃肉,但在他的正餐中,依然包括有肉類食品,最常見的是巴伐利亞香腸、火腿與鴿肉。
                        
 這些文件包括來自希特勒廚師Dione                           Lucas在一本書中所寫的資料,當中Dione Lucas說希特勒在他晚年有時候表現出是一位素食者的樣態,但他不是一位真正的素食者,而且經常或偶而吃肉與其他動物產品包括魚子醬。這位希特勒的女廚師甚至表示,希特勒最喜歡的一道菜是乳鴿肉。

                        
                           詳細內容請參閱:
                          http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/3/prweb219804.htm
                          http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02EEDA123CF936A25750C0A9639C8B6

Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:36:06 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
本帖最后由 Kanker 于 2012-4-11 12:37 编辑
thinkmac 发表于 2012-4-11 12:30
Vegan political killer. Animal rights above human                beings.                Dutch dail ...
Fortuyn 這麼 N 年前的案。

荷蘭要是所有素食者和動物權也去殺人的話,相信全部也進監獄了吧 ?

你為何不拿監獄裡所有殺人犯是否素食者來作個比例,這樣就夠科學了。
Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:41:01 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
本帖最后由 Kanker 于 2012-4-11 12:45 编辑
thinkmac 发表于 2012-4-11 12:28
Albert Einstein tried a vegetarian diet - for the last year of his life. He died after doing so an ...

他晚年已經不怎麼從事工作,他是因為發現健康出現問題而茹素,你這種斷章取義的方式說他不從事科學工作是因為素食,這是他說的嗎 ?

如果你要證明素食是誰人 tired 的話,我之前已經有很多反駁的例子拿出來,你全部無視。

你不但不客觀接受他人的論據的同時,還用抹黑的方式去惡意種傷所有素食者。


Albet Einstein  的後來者 愛因斯坦認為空間是可以延伸但無法分割的理論的Brian Greene, 他說我們可以更廣泛地探討,為什麼大多數的人並沒有吃素?我認為這是因為大多數的人對吃肉早就習以為常了,所以他們不會有所質疑。他們當中不乏對動物與環境非常關心的人,但因為某些因素,比方說被習慣控制、受文化規範,或抗拒改變等等,而使他們沒有進一步改變飲食習慣。


本人以一種“救護動物、環保、健康” 的心力,從事宣傳活動,基本上對於整個世界來說也是好事情,不應該受到排斥,網絡論壇是一個公開的平台,你不認同沒有關係,但其他有緣有興趣的人則會看, 但是你使用不實的資料來“抹黑” 我們所有的素食者, 客觀點說,你這種行為居心何在 ?
thinkmac  版主  2012-4-11 11:43:50 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
Kanker 发表于 2012-4-11 11:36
Fortuyn 這麼 N 年前的案。

荷蘭要是所有素食者和動物權也去殺人的話,相信全部也進監獄了吧 ?

                                Adolf Hitler's vegetarianism                                                                                                                                                                                                From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jump to: navigation,                                        search                               
                                                                                                                                In addition to being a teetotaler and a non-smoker,[1] Adolf Hitler has been regarded by some as a vegetarian.[2] It has been theorized that Hitler's diet may have been based on Richard Wagner's historical theories[3] which connected the future of Germany with vegetarianism.[4] Hitler may have believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration.
Contents [hide]
  • 1 Hitler as a vegetarian
  • 2 Questioning Hitler's vegetarianism
  • 3 See also
  • 4 Notes
  • 5 References
  • 6 Further reading
[edit] Hitler as a vegetarianAccording to stenographic transcripts translated by Hugh Trevor-Roper of conversations between Hitler and his inner circle which took place between July 1941 and November 1944, Hitler regarded himself as a vegetarian (however, British historian Alan Bullock argues that Hitler would not allow the use of a tape recorder and that the written transcripts were edited by Bormann).[5]
Do you know that your Führer is a vegetarian, and that he does not eat meat because of his general attitude toward life and his love for the world of animals? Do you know that your Führer is an exemplary friend of animals, and even as a chancellor, he is not separated from the animals he has kept for years?...The Führer is an ardent opponent of any torture of animals, in particular vivisection, and has declared to terminate those conditions...thus fulfilling his role as the savior of animals, from continuous and nameless torments and pain.
Neugeist/Die Weisse Fahne (German magazine of the New Thought movement)[6]
According to these transcripts dated November 11, 1941 Hitler said, "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian." On January 12, 1942, he said, "The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."[7]
In private conversations, Hitler often recited the benefits of eating raw vegetables, fruit, and grains, particularly for children and soldiers. In an attempt to disgust dinner guests and provoke them into shying away from meat, he reportedly told graphic stories of visits he had made to a slaughterhouse in Ukraine.
Food writer Bee Wilson is of the opinion that: "His distaste for meat knew no pity of animals." She went on to note that: "At mealtimes he often boasted - in graphic detail - of a slaughterhouse he had visited in Ukraine. It amused him to spoil carnivorous guests' appetites."[8] This idea, however, is not supported by the BBC series The Nazis: a Warning from History. In this series an eyewitness account tells of Hitler watching movies (which he did very often). If ever a scene showed (even fictional) cruelty to or death of an animal, Hitler would cover his eyes and look away until someone alerted him the scene was over. The documentary also commented on the German animal welfare laws that the Nazis introduced, which were unparalleled at the time.[9]
In a November, 1938 article for the English magazine Homes & Gardens describing Hitler's mountain home, The Berghof, Ignatius Phayrethe wrote, "A life-long vegetarian at table, Hitler's kitchen plots are both varied and heavy in produce. Even in his meatless diet Hitler is something of a gourmet — as Sir John Simon and Anthony Eden were surprised to note when they dined with him in the Chancellry at Berlin.
His Bavarian chef, Herr Kannenberg, contrives an imposing array of vegetarian dishes, savoury and rich, pleasing to the eye as well as to the palate, and all conforming to the dietic standards which Hitler exacts."[10]
In his table talks, Hitler spoke about vegetarianism on April 25, 1942 at midday, about Roman soldiers eating fruits and cereals and the importance of raw vegetables. He places the emphasis on scientific arguments such as naturalists' observations and chemical efficacy.[11]
In a diary entry dated April 26, 1942, Joseph Goebbels described Hitler as a committed vegetarian, writing,
An extended chapter of our talk was devoted by the Führer to the vegetarian question. He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity. Of course he knows that during the war we cannot completely upset our food system. After the war, however, he intends to tackle this problem also. Maybe he is right. Certainly the arguments that he adduces in favor of his standpoint are very compelling.[12]
Martin Bormann, who as head of the Party Chancellery (and private secretary to Hitler) is considered by most historians to have been the second most powerful Nazi official in Germany, built Hitler a large greenhouse at Berchtesgaden in order to keep him supplied with fresh fruit and vegetables throughout the war. Personal photographs of Bormann's children tending the greenhouse survive, and by 2005 its foundations were among the only ruins associated with the Nazi leadership still visible in the area.
Finally, in his personal life Hitler showed anti-meat tendencies. Hitler disapproved of cosmetics since they contained animal by-products. He frequently teased his mistress Eva Braun about her habit of wearing makeup.[7] In his post-war reminiscence The Enigma of Hitler, Belgian SS General, and friend of Hitler's, Léon Degrelle wrote: "He could not bear to eat meat, because it meant the death of a living creature. He refused to have so much as a rabbit or a trout sacrificed to provide his food. He would allow only eggs on his table, because egg-laying meant that the hen had been spared rather than killed."[13]
The German psychoanalyst Erich Fromm believed that Hitler's vegetarianism was a means of atoning for the death of his half-niece Geli Raubal, as well as a means of proving to himself and others that he was incapable of killing. [14]
[edit] Questioning Hitler's vegetarianism
"Hitler was in no way an ethical vegetarian," Berry asserts. He believes that it is important to counter the assertions of scholars that the chief Nazi abstained from meat "because nonvegetarians tend to use the Nazi issue to discredit vegetarianism in general."
—Deborah Rudacille[15]
Author Rynn Berry, a vegetarian and animal rights advocate, maintains that although Hitler reduced the amount of meat in his diet, he never stopped eating meat completely for any significant length of time. Berry argues that many historians use the term 'vegetarian' incorrectly to describe someone who simply reduced their meat consumption.[2][16]
In 1991, upon the death of Isaac Bashevis Singer, criticism over the omission of Singer's vegetarianism in his obituary led to a debate regarding Hitler's alleged vegetarianism in the letters page of The New York Times. Letter writer Carol Jochnowitz wrote: "On page 89 of The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook (1964), Dione Lucas, recalling her pre-World War II stint as a hotel chef in Hamburg, Germany, states: 'I do not mean to spoil your appetites for stuffed squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with Mr. Hitler, who dined at the hotel often. Let us not hold that against a fine recipe though.'"[17]
Author Robert Payne, in his biography of Hitler, The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler (Praeger, 1973) theorizes that the image of Hitler as a vegetarian ascetic was deliberately fostered by propaganda minster Joseph Goebbels:
"Hitler's asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women. Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress....His asceticism was a fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men....In fact, he was remarkably self-indulgent and possessed none of the instincts of the ascetic. His cook, an enormously fat man named Willy Kannenberg, produced exquisite meals and acted as court jester. Although Hitler had no fondness for meat except in the form of sausages and never ate fish, he enjoyed caviar...." (p. 346)[18]
In the book, The Mind of Adolf Hitler, it is said: "If he (Hitler) does not eat meat, drink alcoholic beverages, or smoke, it is not due to the fact that he has some kind of inhibition or does it because he believes it will improve his health. He abstains from these because he is following the example of the great German, Richard Wagner, or because he has discovered that it increases his energy and endurance to such a degree that he can give much more of himself to the creation of the new German Reich."[19]
The April 14, 1996, Sunday magazine edition of The New York Times, includes this description of Hitler's diet in an article first published on May 30, 1937, 'At Home With The Führer.' "'It is well known that Hitler is a vegetarian and does not drink or smoke. His lunch and dinner consist, therefore, for the most part of soup, eggs, vegetables and mineral water, although he occasionally relishes a slice of ham and relieves the tediousness of his diet with such delicacies as caviar ..."[18]
Traudl Junge, who became Hitler's secretary in 1942, reported that he "always avoided meat" but that his Austrian cook Kruemel sometimes added a little animal broth or fat to his meals. "Mostly the Fuehrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get very annoyed and then get tummy ache," Junge said. "At the end he would only let Kruemel cook him clear soup and mashed potato."[20]
In 1943, Marlene von Exner became Hitler's dietician and reportedly added bone marrow to his soups without his knowledge because she "despised" his vegetarian diet.[8]
There is also a question as to whether or not Hitler's state policies supported vegetarianism. It is claimed by British Vegetarian society that Hitler persecuted and closed German vegetarian organizations and associations like "Vegetarier-Bund Deutschlands” (closed by Nazis in 1936). However, the Nazis imposed a blanket ban on all independent societies and there is no evidence of hostility toward vegetarianism in particular, which Hitler personally endorsed. "Vegetarier-Bund Deutschlands" only started its legal activities after the Nazis lost World War II in 1945.[21][22][verification needed]
From 1936 almost until Hitler's death by suicide in 1945, Theodor Morell, his personal physician, gave him "quack supplements" which contained animal components.[16][23] Morell gave Hitler daily injections of various commercially prepared tonics containing animal by-products including Glyconorm, an injectable compound containing vitamins B1, B2 and C, cardiac muscle, adrenal gland, liver, and pancreas.
Other injected preparations contained placenta, bovine testosterone and extracts containing seminal vesicles and prostate to combat depression. At the time, extracts from animal glands were popularly believed to be "elixirs of youth".[24]
Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:48:42 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
thinkmac 发表于 2012-4-11 12:43
Adolf Hitler's vegetarianism                                                                                                                                                                                                From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                 ...

New York Times Corrects Article on Hitler: Refutes Longstanding Myth that Hitler was a Vegetarian               The New York Times issues a correction that smashes the long held belief that Hitler was a vegetarian. Sources for Hyler eating meat are given.

The March 15 New York Times "Corrections" box included the following  important item on page 2:
"A film review about 'Downfall,' which looks at Hitler's final days, referred incorrectly to his diet. Although the movie portrays him as vegetarian, he did eat at least some meat."     
While small in size, the correction represents a major victory for truth, since the myth of Hitler’s alleged vegetarianism has long been used to try to discredit vegetarians. If this inaccuracy is repeated in the future, as it likely will be, one can now refer to the nation’s "Newspaper of Record" to set the record straight.
As documented below, numerous published accounts and first hand sources have confirmed that Hitler's diet included meat. At times Hitler evidently refrained from eating meat (and using alcohol and tobacco), as a response to his many health problems, but his normal diet, and the food served at his retreats and  residences, included poultry and meat, most often Bavarian sausages, ham, liver, and pigeons.
Indeed, the Nazis banned vegetarian organizations in Germany and the lands they invaded and occupied.
The JVNA thanks the Times, especially its public editor Daniel Okrent and his associate Arthur Bovino, for their great public service of helping to put to rest this pernicious myth. This effort involved many hours of research, copying, and sending information to the Times, primarily by Atlanta writer Lewis Regenstein, president of The Interfaith Council for the Protection of Animals and Nature, with help from JVNA president Richard Schwartz, Micah Books publisher Roberta Kalechofsky, and author Rynn Berry.



The JVNA also expresses the hope that other writers who have recently circulated the myth of Hitler’s vegetarianism, including columnist David Shaw of the Los Angeles Times, and writer/commentator Ben Stein, will also issue corrections.


Material sent to the NY times to influence their decision included the following:
Robert Payne's authoritative "The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler" (Prager, 1973) states on page 346: "Hitler's asceticism played an important role in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend, he neither smoked not drank, nor did he eat meat...Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages...
His asceticism was a fiction, invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self control...He could claim that he was dedicated to the service of his people.


In fact, he was remarkably self indulgent... Although Hitler had no fondness for meat except in the form of sausages and never ate fish, he enjoyed caviar..."


Armaments Minister Albert Speer's autobiography, "Inside the Third Reich," (Macmillan, 1970) indicates that meat was served, in substantial amounts, at Hitler's meals.


Page 89, in the chapter "Obersalzberg," describing Speer's move to the mountain, states that "Hitler usually appeared in the lower rooms late in the morning...The day actually began with prolonged afternoon dinner. The Food was simple and substantial: soup, a meat course, dessert..."


Page 119 of the chapter "A day in the Chancellery" states, "Such was the 'Merry Chancellor's Restaurant', as Hitler often called it...The food was emphatically simple. A soup, no appetizer, meat with vegetables and potatoes, a sweet.....Hitler was served his vegetarian food...and those of his guests who wished could imitate him. But few did... It was Hitler himself who insisted on this simplicity. He could count on its being talked about in Germany,"


p. 128 describes how Hitler enjoyed gorging on caviar, eating it by the spoonful: "For a few weeks, Hitler actually ate caviar by the spoonful with gusto, and praised the taste, which was new to him. But then he asked Kannenberg [the house steward] about the price, was horrified, and gave strict orders against having that again. Thereupon, the cheaper red caviar was served him. But that too was rejected as an extravagance....the idea of a caviar-eating Leader was incompatible with Hitler's conception of himself."
No real vegetarian would eat caviar, given the wasteful & cruel way in which it is produced -- by ripping or cutting open the belly of a female sturgeon full of eggs (roe), thus killing a mother sturgeon and thousands of potential offspring. (As a result of over-harvesting, the source of the world's best caviar, the sturgeon in the Caspian Sea, are now considered threatened with extinction.)


The references above, plus writings by Dione Lucas, Hitler's chef, clearly document that while Hitler in his later years sometimes posed as a non-meat eater, he was not a real vegetarian, and did frequently or at least occasionally eat meat, fowl, and other animals products (eggs, caviar) & always served them to his guests.


Rynn Berry points out in his recent book, "Hitler: Neither Vegetarian nor Animal Lover," that the woman chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during the late 1930s was Dione Lucas. In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she records that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily requested - was stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your appetite for stuffed squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with Mr. Hitler, who dined in the hotel often."



Contact:
Lewis Regenstein
Author of "Replenish the Earth"
regenstein@mindspring.com         
Phone: (404) 814-1371
Richard H. Schwartz
President of the Jewish Vegetarians of North America (JVNA) rschw12345@aol.com    
Phone: (718) 761-5876
thinkmac  版主  2012-4-11 11:48:46 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰

RE: 荷兰“半素食者”增多

Kanker 发表于 2012-4-11 11:33
典型對素食者有偏見的例子: 印度國父聖雄甘地作例子 ? 非要拿納綷不可 ?

客氣討論你不要聽,非要抽不可 ...

客氣討論你不要聽,非要抽不可 This only confirms you are radicalist.
Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:51:07 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
本帖最后由 Kanker 于 2012-4-11 12:52 编辑

我是素食者,你認為我是種族主者嗎 ?

誰會認為我是個主張屠殺一些民族的人嗎 ?  

本人從來就主張民族大同。

如果有人硬要拿“  素食者 = 納綷 ”的話,那就是誹謗。
Kanker  海贼王  2012-4-11 11:55:47 | 显示全部楼层 来自: 荷兰
本帖最后由 Kanker 于 2012-4-11 13:06 编辑
thinkmac 发表于 2012-4-11 12:48
客氣討論你不要聽,非要抽不可 This only confirms you are radicalist.

人家說理據,你不聽,你還誹謗人家是“ 希特勒 ”, 人家還對你客氣溫和  ?

人家要看“溫和”的,可以去看 荷蘭 PVDD 動物黨的資料。 他們走溫和的議會路線,是他們另一條的路線。


關於“激進”, 激進有什麼問題 ?   這是不同風格的問題,你抹黑我是“種族主義者、納綷份子” ,根本與激進與否沒有關係。

荷蘭有法律禁止“納綷宣傳 和 種族主義” 的言論,如果你有客觀的事實證據證明我是“納綷宣傳 和 種族主義的話,我歡迎你去報案

“ 激進” 就代表了 “ 納綷 ” 嗎 ?  你這些是什麼邏輯 ? 任何新社會活動的開端也需要有“激進”派的存在,激進派就是先鋒來引起社會的關注。

孫中山搞革命是激進 ?   孫中山也是素食者。
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